Difficulty understanding the recorded sayings of joshu.

Hello everyone I am trying to give Zen a shot. I looked at the reading list to get some learning. First, I listened to the audiobook Instant zen by Cleary on the teachings of Foyan. I liked it very much, didn't understand some parts of it. My favorite bits were: the flag is not moving, the wind is not moving, the mind is moving. There is a true person of no rank in the naked mass of flesh, entering and exiting through the sense doors. Do you hear the sound of the valley stream? Gain access through there. Not the bell that chimes, or the wind. notseeking notseeking notseeking seeking. But there were also many teachings that made no sense. Like this one: "What is the bamboo Grove of duofu. One cane two canes slanted."

I have moved on to the next book. Currently trying to read the recorded sayings of joshu(chaochou). Absolutely nothing makes sense in this book. I'm about 300 sayings in and there is nothing I can get from most of the sayings. How do you interpret the taking off of your sandal and putting it on your head after hearing about the killing of a cat?? Or responding to "I've heard you met intimately with nanquan, is it true?" with" in the province of chen large radishes are found"??? This book was in the beginner reading recommmendations on this subreddit btw.

Submitted May 19, 2023 at 03:14PM by Disastrous-Field-906 https://ift.tt/W8PvgHB

Advice on planning a trip to Japan for Study at a Zen Monastery?

So, as ridiculous as this goal may be, I think I am in a position to achieve a lifelong dream of visiting Japan on a pilgrimage for Zen purposes...

I have about a year to prepare, so my main questions are:

-How much money will this take? I am in a uniquely lucky situation enabling me to save more than I have ever been able to, I assume a stay of a month or a few months with a humble "patchrobed monk" perspective / "hippie backpacker hostel-hopping attitude" could be pulled off for between 5 + 10 grand, something like that would be pretty safe / comfortable right?

(By the way "One who has not left home but is on the path is family; one who has left home but is on not on the path is a stranger. One who has not left the path but returned home is a stranger; but one who has left home and not remained on the path is family." (or something like that!)

-How long can an American legally stay in Japan?

-Are there any legal considerations in addition to application for a passport and (I assume) a work visa, if neccessary?

-Are there grants I could look into for academic of religious reasons for travel? (I am not currently the student of a university or member of any Zen/Buddhist organizations which might provide any funding).

-What is the application process to become a "guest" student / monk at any kind of Zen Monestary? How do I research and choose amongst them and begin an application process now? (I figured I would begin a search for simply the largest and most "respected" monasteries that accept foreign "guests" and teach koans, in the Rinzai tradition...

-What am I missing here? Will this work? Am I crazy or is this so crazy it just might work?

Submitted May 19, 2023 at 07:01AM by mosssmonster https://ift.tt/kl7nOwr

Baiyun Duan 73: Baling's Hair Blown Sword

A monk asked Zen Master Baling, “What is the sword that cut a blown hair?”

Baling answered, “Every branch of coral holds up the moon.”

[0301c10] 巴陵顥鑑禪師因僧問。如何是吹毛劍。師曰。珊瑚枝枝撑著月。

Every branch of coral holds up the moon—
When shooting arrows at a target is not satisfying to watch,
When the four seas have come to offer their tribute,
Heaven and earth shine together in the brilliance of this cool, glowing jewel.

[0301c12] 珊瑚枝枝撑著月。射斗鋒鋩未足觀。四海盡來歸貢後。乾坤同輝寶光寒。

Submitted May 19, 2023 at 04:40AM by surupamaerl2 https://ift.tt/V3EM08A

The Call of the Inanimate

​

From Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching #314

Dongshan went to Guishan and asked, "I recently heard that National Teacher Zhong held that inanimate things teach; I have not yet plumbed that subtlety."

Guishan said, "Here I also hold this, but it's hard to find suitable people."

Dongshan said, "Do tell, master." Guishan said, "The mouth born of my father and mother will never explain for you."

Dongshan said, "Is there anyone who sought the Way at the same time as you?"

Guishan said, "There is a series of caves from here; there is a wayfarer, Yunyan - if you can watch the wind by the way it blows the grass, he'll certainly be esteemed by you."

When he got to Yunyan he asked, "Who can hear the teaching of the inanimate?" Yunyan said, "The inanimate can hear."

Dongshan said, "Can you hear?" Yunyan said, "If I could hear it, you wouldn't hear my teaching."

Dongshan said, "Why don't I hear?" Yunyan stood up his whisk and said, "Do you hear?" Dongshan said, "No."

Yunyan said, "You don't even hear my teaching; how could you hear the teaching of the inanimate?" Dongshan said, "In what scripture is the teaching of the inanimate?"

Yunyan said, "Haven't you read the Amitabha scripture saying, 'Water birds and woods all remembrance Buddha and remembrance Dharma; inanimate plants and trees pipe and sing in concert'?"

At this Dongshan had insight. He then produced a verse saying,

Wonderful, wonderful!
The teaching of the inanimate is inconceivable.
If you listen with your ears you'll never understand;
When you hear their voice with your eyes, only then will you know.

I relate to this case as a reminder to take things as they are, not grasping or rejecting based on something I bring to the table. Not painting them with my own conceptual interpretations.

It calls to mind Qingliang, who said, "If a thought is not produced, then before and after are cut off, and the luminous essence stands alone; others and self are one suchness. Go directly to the source of mind, and there is no knowledge, no attainment; you neither grasp nor reject, so there is no opposition and no cultivation."

The Amitabha sutra to which Yunyan referred says:

In this Buddha-land, there is a slight breeze that stirs the rows of jewel trees and jewel nets, so that they emit subtle wondrous sounds, like hundreds and thousands of melodies playing all at once. All those who hear these sounds spontaneously develop the intention to be mindful of the Buddha, mindful of the Dharma, and mindful of the Sangha.

One of my favorite dharma poets, Ippen, wrote:

Among all living things —
mountains and rivers, grasses and trees
the sounds of blowing winds and rising waves—
there is nothing that is not the Name.

"The Name" refers to the nembutsu, which is Amitabha as nirmanakaya. Infinite life. Infinite light. Only the voice of Amitabha's call sounds, resounding everywhere. There's nothing for me to do. Just listen.

How do you relate to this case?

From your perspective, what does the inanimate teach? How do we hear it?

Submitted May 18, 2023 at 11:57PM by FingersTyping https://ift.tt/orXip2m

Admission of Defeat

I’ve been re-reading Dahui’s Treasury and I try to understand the what’s going on in the text but most of the time it’s just a failure on my end. It’s like the cases are a wall I can’t penetrate.

I don’t really know how to proceed.

Ask me anything.

Submitted May 18, 2023 at 08:41PM by ThatKir https://ift.tt/Pk6RGfm

German Zen Translations?

I've come up empty when looking for German Zen translations. Anybody know any good ones?

Pretty sure there's a Momonkan somewhere but no idea how good it is.

And there's various translations of the second patriarch's poem I think.

Otherwise I got nothing.

Submitted May 18, 2023 at 12:17PM by dota2nub https://ift.tt/RLtMob6

The Long Scroll Part 17

This is a possible continuation from part 16.

Section XVII

"If the mind reveres something, it must despite something. If the mind affirms something, it must negate something. If the mind takes a single thing to be good, then all things are not good. If the mind is intimate with a single thing, then all things become its rival. The mind does not rest on material nor does it rest on the immaterial. It does not rest on rest, nor does it rest on non-rest. If the mind rests on something it will not escape its bondage. If the mind does something somewhere, then it is bound. If mind values a phenomenon that phenomenon can detain you. If the mind esteems a single phenomenon, the mind must contemn something.

If one grasps at the meaning of the sutras and sastras one certainly will not revere the understanding thereof. But when there is an understanding of something, the mind is subject to something. If the mind is subject to something then it is bound. A sutra says "One does not obtain Nirvana through the methods of inferior, medium and superior." The mind, despite being in the deluded state does not make an undeluded interpretation. Whenever the mind arises, rely on the phenomena [dharma] to observe from where it arises. If the mind discriminates, then immediately rely on the phenomena [dharma] to observe where it discriminates. If there is greed, anger, or inversion, then rely on the phenomena [dharma] to observe from where they arise.

Not seeing a place for these to arise is the practice of the way. If one does not discriminate between things, this is also the practice of the way.

But if the mind arises, examine it, and manage it by relying on the phenomena [dharma]."

This concludes section XVII

The Long Scroll Parts: [1], [2], [3 and 4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]

Submitted May 18, 2023 at 12:46AM by InfinityOracle https://ift.tt/ZcQsn01

Baiyun Duan 71-2: One More Yunmen 241: Yunmen's Mount Sumeru and Medicine and Disease

71

A monk asked, “Is not giving rise to a single thought not also a transgression?”

Yunmen said, “Mount Sumeru.”

[0301b14] 雲門因僧問。不起一念還有過也無。師曰。須彌山。

Mount Sumeru fills the universe,
Even the Thousand-eyed Bodhisattva can not see through it—
Only you who have mastered riding the ox backwards,
Will not spend your whole life following after others.

[0301b15] 須彌山塞宇宙。千眼大悲看不透。除非自解倒騎牛。一生不著隨人後。

…

72

Yunmen said to the assembly, “Medicine and disease treat eachother. The whole earth is medicine, which one is your self?”

[0301c02] 雲門示眾曰。藥病相治。盡大地是藥。那個是自己。

The left eye can't see the mountains and rivers,
The right eye can't see the sun and moon—
Until the time a hundred flowers bloom,
You can distinguish each and every one.

[0301c03] 左眼不見山河。右眼不見日月。直得百花開時。一一為君分別。

Submitted May 17, 2023 at 02:44AM by surupamaerl2 https://ift.tt/lfsnK7b

Yunmen: The one-man party

The 467th case from Dahui’s Treasury,

Yunmen said, "The eyelashes extend horizontally through the ten directions; the eyebrows penetrate heaven and earth above and penetrate the underworld below. The polar mountain blocks off your throat. Does anyone understand? If there is anyone who understands, drag out Cambodia to butt heads with Korea."

Dahui said, "'This is a great spiritual spell, a spell of great knowledge, an unexcelled spell, an unequalled spell, able to eliminate all suffering, really true not in vain.' Do you want to know Yunmen? Haven't you heard it said, 'Everyone must be stirred by party music'?"

It seems to me Yunmen liked to do this sort of thing a lot, like when he hit Indra in the nose and that other time he said Indra and Buddha where fighting in the courtyard.

What is he saying here?

Dahui seems to think it’s something really cool. I don’t see it. Can anybody hear the tune Yunmen is dancing to?

Submitted May 17, 2023 at 01:31AM by astroemi https://ift.tt/16fR2oU

Rotten Wood and Dead Vines

Master Langya Jiao said,

*”Propositions of being and nonbeing are like vines clinging to a tree. When the tree falls, the vines whiter, a fine piece of rotten firewood.

I take “propositions of being and nonbeing” to be various religious doctrines. Some such include popular ones such as “Buddha will save you from suffering with the 8-fold path”, “LSD gives insight into nondual reality”, “Zazen is the dharma gate of bliss”— basically any claim made about reality.

The “tree falling” is believing in and affirming those propositions—it results in insta-death. Whatever remains after someone utters is totally lifeless unfit to be used for fire.

Dahui comments on this case saying, ”Langya very much appears to be mistaking a thief for his son, but even so it’s hard to requite such a huge favor.”

Why does Dahui compare him to someone mistaking a thief for his son?

What’s the big favor?

Submitted May 16, 2023 at 07:58PM by ThatKir https://ift.tt/g37J0o5

Foyan on studying cases

A recent post got me to think about the relationship between Zen cases and enlightenment. Does reading and understanding a lot of Zen cases lead to enlightenment? Does enlightenment make you instantly understand all cases? (I say the answer is "no" to both.) I found a few Foyan quotes that may shine some light on "studying cases."

In the chapter "Real Zen", Foyan tells us a story where someone got enlightened by reading a case:

When Huaitang started to study Zen, he first saw Yunfeng Yue. For three years, he could not understand what Yunfeng was talking about. He also studied with Zen Master Nan, and after two years still did not under­ stand. Then he went to spend a summer retreat in a cloister. In Transmission of the Lamp, he read the story where someone asked Duofu, “What is the bamboo grove of Duofu?” He replied, “One cane, two canes slanted.” At this, Huaitang finally opened up and awakened.

Of course, many people read this case about Duofu now and do not get enlightened. It's like Xiangyan getting enlightened by hearing rubble hit bamboo. People don't go and throw rubble at bamboo, attempting to get enlightened. Replicating the circumstances of someone else's enlightenment doesn't help.

Zen Masters wrote so much commentary and verses for cases, that it's undeniable that they valued them highly. In the intro to the Wumenguan, Wumen says:

Because I received requests to benefit others, I proceeded to go to the ancients’ public cases to make tiles to knock on their gates and, by following the opportunities, to guide these learned persons.

He says that public cases are tiles to knock on the gates of the ancients. So it seems like Wumen at least thought these cases to be useful: After all it's much easier to break open a gate with a tile than with your bare hands. But making intellectual interpretations for a lot of cases doesn't get us anywhere. Throwing a lot of small pebbles at the gate doesn't open it. But one good throw with a large brick and it may crash through, like it did for Huaitang.

In the chapter "Principle and Phenomena", Foyan tells us that theoretical interpretations of cases are useless:

I have seen many who cannot follow principle; when they take it up, they turn it upside down at once. They make useless theoretical interpretations of the sayings and model cases of the ancients, their different challenges, records of seasonal addresses, and the modalities of their individual schools, considering this to be Zen study. How miserable! Study of the path is not like this.

Study of the path is not like this, but what is it like? In the chapter "Instant Enlightenment", Foyan tells us about his experience studying cases:

One day he [Elder Fu] recited a story to me: Zhaozhou showed some fire to a student and said, "Don't call it fire. What is it?" I wondered deeply at this: obviously it is fire—why not call it fire?I contemplated this for three years, always reflecting, "How dare I use the feelings and perceptions of an ordinary man to ask about the realization of sages?"

He contemplated this single Zhaozhou case for three years. I take his question that he asked himself to mean: "How can I, with my unenlightened mind, understand Zhaozhou with his enlightened mind?" His studying seems to take the form of close self examination. He investigates the short comings he believes to see in his own mind. I think that is an important hint on how people should deal with Zen cases. Superficial theoretical interpretations don't get us anywhere. We need to take them personally and see them as a starting point to investigate ourselves. I think there can be no method for this kind of investigation: You can't tell someone "First you gotta ask yourself X, then you'll have insight Y, then you continue by taking a close look at Z", that just won't work.

We should also note that it isn't mentioned that Foyan got enlightened while doing this investigation. About his own enlightenment, he just says that he attained understanding at the fireside.

In "Keys of Zen Mind", he says:

This is not a matter of longtime practice; it does not depend on cultivation. That is because it is something that is already there. Worldly people, who do not recognize it, call it roaming aimlessly. That is why it is said, “ Only by experiential realiza­tion do you know it is unfathomable.” People who study the path clearly know there is such a thing; why do they fail to get the message, and go on doubting? It is because their faith is not complete enough and their doubt is not deep enough. Only with depth and completeness, be it faith or doubt, is it really Zen; if you are incapable of introspection like this, you will eventually get lost in confusion and lose the thread, wearing out and stumbling halfway along the road. But if you can look into yourself, there is no one else.

Foyan says that Zen is not a matter of longtime practice and that it is not a matter of cultivation. Make sense, since "investigation" is about examining something that is already there, not about cultivation. He is talking about faith and doubt. Maybe it could be said that this "investigation" is putting doubt into practice. Later in the same chapter, he continues:

When people pro­ceed on the path because they are confused and do not know their own minds, they come to mountain forests to see teachers, imagining that there is a special “way” that can make people comfortable, not realizing that the best exercise is to look back and study your previous confusion.

I'd say that the cases are a starting point for us to look back and study our own confusion.

Let's make this post a bit more controversial: Is this "look back and study your previous confusion" a kind of meditation? Is it a practice? I say no to both. It's not what we commonly understand the word "meditation" to mean. It's self examination, not controlling the mind or exercising the mind in a certain way (some modern meditation manuals compare meditation to physical exercise of which you do repetitions). And because it isn't repetitive, it's also not a practice in that sense. It's not practicing to be a certain way or use your mind a certain way, it's closely looking at what's there. But I think, we could maybe say that it is putting Zen into practice, the practical side of Zen (as opposed to mere theoretical study).

Submitted May 16, 2023 at 03:04PM by moinmoinyo https://ift.tt/5eW4zR7

Urs App on the treatment of Zen by Japanese and Western Buddhists

I only just started but it's a bit of a treasure trove. Get hype!

The mirror image of the Japanese scholarly attitude [nub note: he 
talked about the Japanese scholarly attitude as being very precise 
and diligent] is observed in talks and books by Japanese and Western Zen Masters 
who for the most part care little about philology. Even more strikingly, the flood
of Western publications about Chan/Zen contains many examples which
bespeak their authors' inability or reluctance to face the hardships
and joys of precise philological and historical research on primary
Chan sources; this, coupled with the extreme scarcity of reliable
translations and a good dose of fascination with "Oriental mystique" ,
inspires various authors to flights of imagination as to what Zen is
really about. The results abound on the shelves of the "Esoterica and
Magic" sections in our bookstores. Watever their views, most of these
Western authors exhibit at least a legitimate eagerness to find out
about the essence and meaning of Zen. But apart from the publications
of D.T. Suzuki 鈴木大拙， his contemporary Hisamatsu Shin' ichi 久松真
一，and their student and disciple Richard DeMartino, not many books
or articles have appeared in Western languages which address the content 
of Chan/Zen texts with authority. Such publications may not be
easy reading ，and inconsistencies of terminology (particularly in
Suzuki) may be a more or less serious drawback. But the more primary
Chan sources are critically studied, the more such authoritative writings 
prove helpful and enlightening. 

This was written in 1989. We're still struggling with these issues to this day, though the translations seem to be catching up. Progress marches on!

Submitted May 16, 2023 at 01:14PM by dota2nub https://ift.tt/QP9mioE

Zen vs. Not Zen comparison - Sengai vs. Zhaozhou

Let's compare two texts that are similar on the surface. A person with supernatural powers comes and issues a challenge.

Here's an excerpt from Sengai Stories translated by Peter Haskel:

**Sengai and the Master of Ki**
Among the teachers of jujutsu in the Fukuoka domain was one Shobayashi Mata'shichiro. A
master of ki power, Shobayashi with a single shout could reportedly knock a man over from
behind a screen and bring down a bird in flight by staring at it fiercely.

One day Shobayashi went to visit Master Sengai.

“Your Reverence, why don’t we have a little contest,” he suggested. “Your samadhi power
against my ki power.”

“Certainly,” Sengai replied. “Feel free to demonstrate your ki power at any time.”
Shobayashi chuckled sardonically. “I’m going to really teach you a lesson!” he promised, and
went into the next room, where focusing his full force he gave a powerful shout—
”EeeeEEEEEH!”

“I must have knocked that Zen master right on his can!” he gloated. But when he peered into
the room he saw Sengai calmly drinking tea. Shobayashi therefore tried again, with a second
great shout, but Sengai remained completely unfazed. Even the famous Shobayashi couldn’t
match the power of Zen meditation.

This reached the ears of the lord of the domain, and consequently Shobayashi’s stipend was
reduced by fifty koku.1When Sengai learned of this he was greatly concerned about
Shobayashi’s situation and secretly summoned him to the temple.
---------------------
“Let’s have another match,” Sengai suggested. “This time I’ll teach you a surefire way to
win.”

The Master then instructed Shobayashi in the meditation technique of counting breaths.
Returning home, Shobayashi practiced the technique single-mindedly night and day, striving
to enter the samadhi of breath-counting, till suddenly he became one with his breathing:
there was no self apart from his breath, no breath apart from his self. He shouted, and the
force of his shout filled heaven and earth. It seemed as if at that moment nothing existed in
the vast universe. At the same time, when he shouted, the entire universe suddenly
appeared.

“That’s it!” he cried out spontaneously and rushed off to see Sengai, presenting his
realization.

Astonished, Sengai exclaimed, “Shobayashi, you’ve done it! That shout is Rinzai’s 'jeweled
sword of the Vajra King.' You’ve knocked down not only me but heaven and earth and all
there is. I’ve lost the match!”

Through his practice of breath-counting meditation, Shobayashi realized the indestructible
diamond samadhi. Thereafter, not only was the fifty koku restored to Shobayashi’s stipend,
but an additional fifty, it is said, was awarded him.

What Sengai teaches is a way to win.

---

From the sayings of Joshu by Hoffmann:

[The monk Daiji came from the west to the capital. He said he possessed the unusual power
of being able to read minds. Emperor Daiso ordered his Zen teacher Etchu to test the monk. 
The moment the monk met the master, he bowed and stepped aside to the right.

The master said, "Are you able to read minds?"

"To some extent," said the monk in reply.

"Tell me where I am at this moment," the master said.

"You, the teacher of a nation - how can you go to the West River to see the boat race?"

"Tell me where I am at this moment," the master said again.

"You, the teacher of a nation - how can you stand on Tenshin Bridge 
and watch monkeys performing tricks?"

"Tell me where I am at this moment," the master said a third time. 
This time the monk was unable to find the master's whereabouts.

The master scolded, "You sly fox! What's happened to that mind-reading ability of yours?"

The monk did not answer.

The master then said to the emperor, "Your Majesty, do not be taken in by foreigners!"]

Someone asked, "It is said that in his third trial, Daiji failed to find Etchu's whereabouts. 
Where on earth was Etchu?" Joshu said, "He was inside Daiji's nostrils."

Joshu is saying that someone who knows their own mind can't be nailed down by someone who hasn't. He isn't teaching anybody anything whatsoever. No particular truth.

I do not see how anybody could say that the traditions these two texts stem from could have any relation whatsoever.

Submitted May 16, 2023 at 12:13PM by dota2nub https://ift.tt/Ar74a3o

The Long Scroll Part 15

A dialog text on the two truths.

Section XV

"What are the two Truths?"

"They are for example, like a mirage, which the deluded see and interpret as water. In reality it is not water, it is a mirage. The meaning of the two Truths is likewise. Ordinary people see the primal Truth and consider it to be the empirical Truth, whereas sages see the empirical Truth and consider it to be the primal Truth. Therefore a sutra says, 'The Buddhas always rely on the two Truths to preach the Dharma.' The primal Truth is the empirical Truth, and the empirical truth is the primal Truth, and the primal Truth is empty. If you see that there are appearances, then you must manage them. If you consider that there is a self, and there is mind, and there is arisal and cessation, these also must you manage."

"What is 'managing'?"

"If you rely on phenomena [dharma] to observe, then you will lose your penetrating sight and not see a thing. Therefore Lao-tzu says, "Vigorous virtue is like indolence'." It draws one into the sky [emptiness]."

This concludes section XV

​ The Long Scroll Parts: [1], [2], [3 and 4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15]

Submitted May 16, 2023 at 01:41AM by InfinityOracle https://ift.tt/jgToOz7

Hey everyone, opening up for my first AMA, let's get it on

Been into zen off and on for 8 years

Submitted May 16, 2023 at 01:25AM by Zen_Bonsai https://ift.tt/zJZwHlD

[Bi-Weekly Meta Monday Thread]

###Welcome to /r/Zen!

​

Welcome to the /r/zen Meta Monday thread, where we can talk about subreddit topics such as such as:

* Community project ideas or updates

* Wiki requests, ideas, updates

* Rule suggestions

* Sub aesthetics

* Specific concerns regarding specific scenarios that have occurred since the last Meta Monday

* Anything else!

​

We hope for these threads to act as a sort of 'town square' or 'communal discussion' rather than Solomon's Court [(but no promises regarding anything getting cut in half...)](https://www.reddit.com/r/Koans/comments/3slj28/nansens_cats/). While not all posts are going to receive definitive responses from the moderators (we're human after all), I can guarantee that we will be reading each and every comment to make sure we hear your voices so we can team up.

Submitted May 15, 2023 at 03:30PM by AutoModerator https://ift.tt/P9D7Mda

Foyan on understanding

From Instant Zen - Page 18

People who study Zen nowadays are all like this; reading a
transformative saying and reaching an insight into the words,
they then try to apply it to all sayings, thinking they are all the
same. Keeping this in their hearts, they think of it as their own
attainment; far from realizing they have lost their minds by 
entertaining an opinionated understanding, they cling to it and will
not let go. What ignoramuses!

It has been said that what comes in through the gate is not a treasure.

How can an insight into one case be an insight into all cases? They're all so different, aren't they, even if they supposedly talk about the same thing?

The only way to have such an insight is to cheat.

Submitted May 15, 2023 at 02:21PM by dota2nub https://ift.tt/Ele1THP

Practice or No Practice?

I’ll post about this just because it’s essentially been the focus of my studying for half a year now.

Baizhang said;

To say that it is possible to attain Buddhahood by cultivation, that there is practice and there is realization, that this mind is enlightened, that the mind itself is identical to Buddha - this is Buddha's teaching; these are words of the incomplete teaching. These are nonprohibitive words, generalizing words, words of a pound or ounce burden. These are words concerned with weeding out impure things; these are words of positive metaphor. These are dead words. These are words for ordinary people.

So there is cultivation for ordinary people.

To say that one cannot attain Buddhahood by cultivation, that there is no cultivation, no realization, it is not mind, not Buddha - this is also Buddha's teaching; these are words of the complete teaching, prohibitive words, particularizing words, words of a hundred hundredweight burden. These are words beyond the three vehicles' teachings, words of negative metaphor or instruction, words concerned with weeding out pure things; these are words for someone of station in the Way, these are living words.

So there isn’t cultivation for people of station in the way. At the beginning of Baizhang’s record there’s a bit more clarity on just what cultivation is.

If you are speaking to a deaf worldling, you should just teach him to leave home, maintain discipline, practice meditation and develop wisdom. You should not speak this way to a worldling beyond measure, someone like Vimalakirti or the great hero Fu.

So it’s the three studies of discipline, concentration, and wisdom. I put concentration there because that’s the best translation I believe for the three studies. The original is sila, samadhi, and prajna; each word having multiple meanings. Discipline is the 5 precepts: and is to get rid of lust, greed, anger, and selfishness. Concentration is what the Buddha and zen masters taught that has become meditation today. But it’s not quite the same, I can talk about that another time. Wisdom is it’s own discussion, but arises from discipline and concentration.

So why is it that ordinary people, dead worldlings, must be taught to practice? And why are those of some station told there is no practice?

The complete teaching discusses purity; the incomplete teaching discusses impurity. Explaining the defilement in impure things is to weed out the profane; explaining the defilement in pure things is to weed out the holy.

It’s just to stop people from clinging to impurity or purity. In neither case is it meant to be taken as objective truth. People just starting out need to be taught to cultivate so they can get rid of impurity. People who have gotten rid of impurities, but then cling to practice and attainment and won’t give them up, need to be taught to detach from purity and practice; from attainment and seeking.

This doesn’t mean that once they practice enough to become pure, that they go back to being impure and doing the same things as before. It’s a means of untying bonds and getting rid of worldly attachments. Putting to rest all concerns and fixations. But that’s not all when it comes to zen; one still needs to investigate single-mindedly.

So why do we see so many mentions of no practice and no attainment in the zen record? Why do they talk about the complete teaching so much, and detaching from purity? Because the people they are talking to are monks who are attached to purity and practice; to seeking and attaining. The record isn’t devoid of them giving instructions on practice, but it isn’t obvious to anyone who doesn’t know what zen cultivation is.

Those who say there is no practice don’t know what zen masters were talking about. Just as those who say there is practice don’t either. These things aren’t objective truths when spoken by a master, and shouldn’t be advertised as such to people who come here looking for answers or to get into zen. Some people here see a master say don’t practice and think it’s a message meant for them and everyone else, but it’s not. And it’s not what zen is about. Zen is what the Buddha taught, and what the zen masters expanded on to provisionally guide others to enlightenment.

Those who try to separate zen from everything taught by groups that have misused the teachings and been misguided by false teachers; throw out the good with the bad, and the right with the wrong. Not everything taught by buddhist groups is out of line with zen, and it only harms the teaching of zen to claim so. Meditation may have become corrupted in some forms, but discipline and the precepts are still important. Practice and cultivation are still necessary in zen.

To go a step further; practice without practice, seek without seeking.

Submitted May 15, 2023 at 01:58AM by StoneStill https://ift.tt/ZdjBkbp

Hide and Seek

From The Record of Tung-shan (Dongshan),

When the Master saw Yu Shang-tso coming, he immediately rose and his behind his Ch'an seat.
Yu said, "Why do you avoid me, Ho-shang?"
"I have always said that it was the Acarya who didn't see this old monk," said the Master.

I can't stop laughing about this. At how silly Dongshan's little farce is. The image is pure gold.

Although he's hiding behind his chair, I think he's revealing something. First, that he has a sense of humor. Second, that he doesn't feel the need to come off as serious in this interaction, which we might even be able to extrapolate could apply to his relationship with his 'Zen Master, head of the monastery, leader of monks' position as a whole.

Imagine anyone else of comparable standing pulling this stunt; a priest, a guru, a college professor, a doctor, a mayor, an attorney. They see you coming to consult them about something and duck behind their chair. You see them do this. They know you saw them do this. You can still see them hiding behind their chair.

Could you even keep a straight face? "Why are you hiding from me?"

"I have always said that it was you who didn't see me."

In what sense did Dongshan mean this?

I don't have the source text, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the character being translated as "see" is probably 見, which can also mean 'catch sight of, meet with, be exposed to,' or 'call on'. Not that this would necessarily change the meaning, but maybe expand it a little.

Given the playful nature of the interaction, I think it could be Dongshan's way of giving Yu a compliment, or maybe a lighthearted admonishment. "Why are you avoiding me?"... "I always said you were the guy who didn't come to see me. I'm trying to preserve your rep, man!"

Something like that. Maybe.

What are some other takes? Why is Dongshan hiding behind his chair? Why does he claim he's always said Yu 'didn't see him'?

Submitted May 14, 2023 at 11:12PM by Surska0 https://ift.tt/s38yD4Y

r/Zen post of the week podcast

Here:

Podcast discussing r/zen posts weekly:

https://sites.libsyn.com/407831

Follow on Spotify and this stuff: Amazon Music/Audible, iHeartRadio, Libsyn Classic Feed, Network App Listing, Podcast Page, Simple Download, Web Player... Also Google Podcasts, super easy.

...Get interviewed by ewk for this podcast by volunteering in the comments or pm/dm me.

Seriously. You can know way more than me or way less, I'll take anybody.

.

Welcome! ewk comment: If you can't find the post, the link is linked on the podcast page. Sometimes posts that get podcasted about do get [removed] or [deleted], but not often.

Here are the episodes this week:

1. No Zen in Zazen: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831/3-31-no-zen-in-zazen
2. Four Statements vs Eightfold Path: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831/4-1-four-statements-of-zen-vs-eightfold-path-buddhism
3. Buffalo Buddha's Inherent: https://sites.libsyn.com/407831/23-4-05-buffalo-buddha-inherent

Each page contains link to reddit post, link to primary Zen text, etc. See the self nature, become a Buddha If you think a post should have been discussed and wasn't, you have only yourself to blame. You could even post something that you wanted to discuss and then volunteer to be interviewed about the post you posted!

Other suggestions welcome as well.

Updates:

• Made it back to the US

Post of the Week Pod-chats. * Request in the comments if you want an invite

• There's an episode without me and a bunch of us. These will be more regular.

• There was a weird double file problem, I didn't bother to figure it out. That's on you. I'm the oldest one in here, why am I doing all the work?

Submitted May 14, 2023 at 08:09PM by ewk https://ift.tt/p78st92